railwaymen as a first step in its campaign to force down wages and lower the living standards of the contract, the debate on the EEC, and the way forward for the labour movement. Obviously we do working class.
tiations around ASLEF's and the railway workers unions' claims?
We have put in for a substantial percentage increase in the basic rates of pay of all our members' grades. We've done this to ream une posuon unar we were nasu year compared with outside industries.
We are asking for an increase of between 30 and 35 per cent.
How do you see the question of protecting wages against inflation through automatic cost of living increases such as thresholds?
Part of our claim to the British Railways Board was also for an incomes protection formula. We have submitted evidence to the Arbitration Tribunal that there should be such protection-in other words a threshold arrangement-for ue next:weve months What is the attitude of British Rail?
The only argument they've used is that they haven't got the money -except for the "cost-of-living" increase of 21.2 per cent, which they feel duty bound to give us. We argued that this is not our responsibility, that it is the responsibility of themselves and the Government, and one of the principal reasons they haven't got the money is the lack of a real integrated transport policy in this country. I put the whole responsibility on the Government.
You talk about an integrated transport system', and Arthur Scargill has referred to the need for a rational basis, in the interests of the working class, if they are run through what remain capitalist institutions?
It would be impossible to run them unless you have got full public contri over them. I mean, as a full-time trade union officer 1 have never met many members of the British Rail Board-this is how democratic we are!
The transport services must really be in the hands of the public and not as thev are The railway system today is run on a profit motivated policy. You will never run a pubne service on pront mouvanon. It snould be there as an essential service. It should be run efficiently -I don't disagree with that-but 1am convinced of this: run surictly as a public service, you could run the railways far more efficiently than they are now.
Tam sure that the social contract is now being used as a means of wage restraint. It was never intended for this. My union was opposed to the social contract, for the reason that we anticipated that it would be used as a means of wage restraint As far as 1 m concerned, as a member of the TUC General Council I accepted it, although reluctantly, as a means of endeavouring to bring some real coordination between the Labour Government and the trade union movement of this country. And I thought we could have perhaps used it as a lever to keep the Labour Party on that would hawa formattho In recent weeks speculation has been growing that the Wilson Government intends to take on the tract developing and has made criticisms of the leaderships of the unions. Now Mick Gosling interviews RAY BUCKTON, Secretary of the locomen's union ASLEF, who presents his side of the discussion on the railwaymen's struggle and how it relates to the social not agree with many of the views which Ray Buckton puts forward but it is important that different views within the workers' movement are heard. For this reason we are pleased to print socialist track. I have my doubts now, or course. when we listen to some of the speeches being made and also with the ast sugge Why do you oppose British membership of the Common Market?
In advocating Britain's withdrawal from the Common Market I speak from the standpoint of an internationalist. I want to see good relations-economic relations, social relations, cultural relations-progressively strengthened between the peoples of the world. I want to see the world's material resources developed and applied for the benefit of mankind-not ruthlessly exploited and misused for the benefit of a small charmed circle of financiers and industral Dotenates In my view all of us who claim to hold such views must of necessity be opposed to our continuing in membership of the Common Market. When we're discussing the Market we're talking about a regional trading block-not aboute internationalism at a ve To talking about an organisation set up to serve the needs of the giant monopolies and near-monopolies which every year, cvery monen, are ugatening ineir gnp on the lives of ordinary citizens.
Stripped of all the phoney idealism, that is what the European Economic Community really is. The Common Market represents capitalism, capitalism What is the present stage of the negotiations around ASLE's and the railway workers unions' claims?
We have put in for a substantial percentage increase in the basic rates of pay of all our members grades. We've done this to retain the position that we were in last year compared with outside industries. We are asking for an increase of between 30 and 35 per cent.
How do you see the question of protecting wages against inflation through automatic cost of living increases such as thresholds?
in its real, true sense. What the capitalist class are doing is using the Common Market system as one of their last defences against socialism.
In your speeches you have talked about the 'fake internationalism' of the EEC. How do you think it will be possible to develop a real international working class response to the Common Market.
This is difficult. My opinion is that if we could only get over the real story of what the Common Market stands for, Red Weekly has presented the way it sees the situation in relation to the social conthis country would bitterly rear up is reduy getung over, the ordinary mel ing for the real answer to the problem, and that real answer will only come by word of mouth.
lives is socialism and the emancipation of the working class peoples, then of course they could see that the principles of the Common Market are out to stop it.
cuss with European rail unions you do you think this is so?
of the Common Market as such. I think unionists into the EEC as possible, to to changing the EEC. I think that's really what mey te arter, toon twink mey accept, well they can't accept the EEC -surely to goodness they are fighting capitalism too.
One of the biggest arguments of the pro-Marketeers is that Britain would face economic disaster if we withdraw from the Common 'We've got to have Labour Party conferences, trade union conferences immediately to adopt new strategies. Market and indeed, this is true as If we get a 'no' vote we will have to start all over again many of the things that have been undone by being a member. We shall definitely have to change the economic system of this coutry.
At the moment we battle along with this mixed economy'-they call it a mixed economy but it is not equally mixed, there is far more capitalism than there is socialism. will have to switch the balance-ultimately to rear socialism. we will have to switch the balance to more socialism in this country.
What do you think of Wilson and against it. But I don't think the message and women in this country are still lookWe're up against the whole media. If we could get the message over to the working class that one of the principles that they have been fighting for all their On your recent trip abroad to disthat the French trade union organisation, the CGT, and the Italian unions of the CGIL have changed their positions of opposition to the Common They are not in favour of the principles Benn?
from my contact with them that one of the main reasons why they're saying "we would like you to be in the EEC" is to strengthen their arm because their own countries are a party to it. I think they want the strength of the British trade union movement to be in to overturn the structure of the EEC as it is at the moment with the Rome Treaty.
Now whether or not this is possible I think is something that can be doubted. Or the other hand I can see maybe their reasons for getting as many positive militant trade strengthen the trade union side, with a view Therefore we but delinitely who have publicly joined in the campaign of press hysteria against strategy I don't think that is good at all. Everybody who is a socialist should realise that the media is definitely out to get bein. is nor benn as such it is what Benn is saying-I'm not saying that he believes in what he is saying at the moment-us teany the capitaust system which is trying to put a stop to anyone who is pushing socialism.
So therefore 1 criticise anyone who criticises these people for doing it. 1 woule crucise anyone in the a0out movement who takes the side of the media, or takes part in the media's campaign oren by mauendo, crucising people who are pursuing socialism.
Do you think there is a contradiction between saying that the outcome of the referendum is a decisive test not only for our relations with the Common Market but for the future direction of the whole of government economic policy; and it today.
I personally agree here that we should be pursuing a new strategy, we should have a new economic policy. Our difficulty at the moment is to have that laid before the public of this country says no. when the Government of the day recom monas that we should stay in If the Government of the day were to recommend that we should stay out, then I supposé we would have then the economic strategy necessary for when we come out. So, therefore, who is to put forward an economic strategy? The Labour Party, yes, has voted to stay out - so 1 would ask the Labour Party to put forward what would be their new economic strategy if we come out of the snould be doing that now so that we are ready with the alternative economic When we go into a new era, which I hope we will be after a 'no' in the referendum, then I think we've got to have Labour Party conferences, trade union conferences immediately to adopt new strategies.
Do you think it is possible to rely on the Labour Government and Parl iament for socialist solutions?
It's not going to get us where we all want to be, but my own opinion, rightly or wrongly, is that in this country we have got to use the means that are available. I don' think in this country, knowing the workers as I do and seeing the backlash from even other workers when workers make a fight, that we will get the type of revolution that perhaps you would stand for If the possibility were there then, of course, we would all say 'let's use it', but I don't think that possibility is there. This is where 1 perhaps part company with many of my colleagues. want socialism the same as them but the differences are over the ways of achieving it. I believe we have got to use the democratic machine as we have I'll hang on, and I'll use all the powers of persuasion that I've got behind the scenes to endeavour to get masses of people to our way of thinking. Then if we get too left for some people who are holding high off ice they will drop out - indeed, two mem bers have already said that they will drop out of the government it the rererenuum It is a slow process but I believe we can speed it up by being united, and if we can only unite the working class people around more socialist thinking then I think we can get there - but we have a lot of pruning to do within our own structure. Taccept this. So when you see we have a Labour Party conterence decision and we see people in the Labour Government and Labour Party even publicly opposing it then I understand the frustrations of many people who say well let's for heaven's sake find another way of doing it - but I don't think we can
red we
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this interview. What is the present stage of the nego-
an "integrated energy policy. Surely things cannot be organied on
What do you feel about the social contract and the way it is being used?
were particularly surprised to find Market over the last few years. Why
far as capitalism is concerned. What is the alternative economic strategy if withdrawal from the Common Market is forced by the referendum?
then on the other hand calling, as Heffer did after he was unceremon-
iously dumped, for the uniting of the Party around Wilson.